WEBVTT

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That's right. I am quoting Claudia Jackson

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incident occurring. All right. OK. We began a

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bunch of began by going to the Roxy Building. How

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long were you on the bottom. Yes I was on most of

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the preliminary discussions that day trying to

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decide how we could could protest what Nixon said.

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And I could state stop. We were all very upset and

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very. Where was Gershwin being. Thank you. Some

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were taking place in the. Some were taking place

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to union to anywhere on campus practically. Was

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there any kind of leadership in that anyone sort

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of directing them to discussions. Was it all

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informal. And everyone could be wondering could

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mostly informal and people contributing what they

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could. All of us came out of a common concern and

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very upset. So it was you know it was essentially

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the people who were involved in watering this down.

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And those of us who had been involved in other and

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other kinds of speaking out on things that we just

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couldn't see possible in this country. So many

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others went to the A building and found that it

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was going to be a a lossy demonstration of

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something in the armory. So we went to the armory

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where we couldn't get in. They wouldn't want to

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share. Had you been to the Naval ROTC before that.

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Yes I had just kind of walk over there and some

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people had already been there and had signs in and

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we're sitting there. So then I went over to the

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armory to see if we could get in because they had

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locked the doors. And we wanted to go in and make

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it clear that that there were a number of us who

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were dissatisfied. How many of you were there at

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the Roxy Building or not. Oh that 25 20 25.

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When we finally got into the armory about two or

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three I was well received. Again the armory. They

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wouldn't let us in. Finally they let us in the

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armory. And there were about 20 about 30 others

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than in the armory. You remain most of the

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afternoon. Well they haven't in nearly. They

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ceased the drills in the army. They did not happen

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there. As we're going to do. It comes down to any

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kind of serious officers. Yes we did. Do you

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personally greet them. I only spoke to one. I

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spent a lot of my time talking to people who were

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sitting down with each other. All of us who were

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sitting in the middle of the armory. We were

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talking about whether or not there was going to be

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an arrest if we stayed there how long we could

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stay there. Feelings about that. There was fear

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about whether or not we would be arrested. And

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just just general dismay and feelings were very

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high. We were told later by local lighton and

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outstanding that we would have to wait five six I

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think five or six. And we decided that if you

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didn't we would appreciate what happened. They

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didn't really say there was a sort of an

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undercover threat. In fact the police would be

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brought in if we didn't leave and the campus

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guards were all around this kind of thing so that

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we did feel like we probably would be arrested. So

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there was a lot of discussion among us about

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whether or not those of us who wanted to be in

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government we could be.

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We finally decided to stay somewhere. And you

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decide to stay here all night and keep the armory.

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And then here is a GST. Me she was going to occur.

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So several of us went to D.C.. Did you stay or go.

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I went to the feeling that that could probably be

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fair since I've been on campus as a director. So I

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kind of felt like maybe I could have a voice. I've

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heard your position. So I went to the D.A. asking

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me didn't speak as I didn't have to. Meaning that

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what you wanted to come about. Right. Going to

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come back and. You didn't really care right after

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it broke up. After he voted for a student. Dragged

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you to be turned around. Yes. And we were told a

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couple of somebody who said from the floor that

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people were over at the armory right now. And I'll

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go over there. So lots and lots of you I can tell

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you anyway everywhere I went and took sleeping

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bags. And by that time there were two people

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fighting to get us out. So we had whether there

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was any attempt to lift you up. Now at that point

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by that time there were so many people it that

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there was no way where they were there and

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tracking them down. There were some faculty

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members there weren't many townspeople but there

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were some back and there were many.

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So we stayed in the island quietly. There was also

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a lot of fringe type discussions going on guitar

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playing. It was generally an acknowledgement of

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who else was concerned. Looking around to see how

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many of us there were finding out where where we

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stood and knowing that we weren't alone in all of

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this. Do you. Were there any discussions or what

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do we want to do the following day. Somehow we did

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talk about the rally. And we talked about who is

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going to speak.

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So she went on home and didn't sleep down.

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There was discussion as we left the field and went

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to the armory on Wednesday morning right after.

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They all go round where you got into the armory.

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There was singing to Arturo. Give peace a chance.

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I kind of work wouldn't have any uh Rocsi activity

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either. No there was not in the armory. There was

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no as I said no there wasn't a drill field. By the

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time you got there. That had been broken up. Right.

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And then canceled. Right. So you got into the

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armory. There was no question preventing you from

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you know there is no one who stopped us from going

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to Germany. They couldn't. They were saying to me.

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Thousands of people going in there and we had no

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way to stop. So in the armory about four people as

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I recall and I couldn't say those name. Mostly

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because I can't remember I was one. Who made

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suggestions as to where we might go what we like

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lower a portable. No we were just talking OK. All

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these people are in the army and they're all you

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know no operations during. We had a thing you know.

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But we were born. Right. And I think Clyde Brown

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had for sure. The decision was reached to what if

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you should go. I suggested marching and going

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straight down. Down. Right. Marching out to the

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draft board. There was my. Could you say what you

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would do with Gafoor. No. The never ending. What

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would I do. What were the other suggestions or did

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everyone agree on that. Some wanted to stay there

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and keep the army some way to go downtown to City

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Hall. We were all at the same time very concerned

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about the Rosie trial. So all this was going on

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and more mean the possible effects that March

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would have or that. And also that this ties in

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very clearly with the situation the black country.

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And so we're attempting to make some kinds of

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connections for people to see whether any black

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men. You know I'm going to ask for anything more.

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I think they have their own reasons for not being

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there. I agree with.

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So there was a discussion of where to go and there

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were suggestions on down down the draft board in

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city hall or stay there and do something in the

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armory. Right. We reached the decision to go down

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to the draft board or at least begin to march. And

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Pam we began to march and everybody went in the

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middle of the march in the middle of Lincoln Way

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and Beach. Was there any hesitation or a question

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of where you would go when you got to Lincoln. We

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generally agreed. I like them to go in the

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direction of downtown. Yeah. By less than as I

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thought I'd take it. It was not agreed upon by

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quite breath taking. I'm not clear about this but

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I think that they just wanted to get in the way

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and stop at Main Street.

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And I didn't know that was his decision. It is

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very very difficult. So you got to be you not to

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let everybody sat down for hour Clive Brown

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suggested that some people sit down and so people

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did. Many others didn't want to sit down and

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didn't sit down and couldn't understand why it was

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a split. That includes you know language. We did

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not understand why in the world people had stopped.

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So I went. I personally thought that it was

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important to continue going.

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And make it very clear with that many people were

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distressed people did stay. And many others went

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on and continue to march down the same path that

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we raised earlier and another moratorium march. So

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we left some people behind and went on. You

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weren't concerned about the lack of a breakthrough.

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I'm very concerned about the lack of it. I was

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just brought up in the discussion of the in winter.

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Yeah. And at that point our anger was so full that

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we couldn't see any reason to have to have a great

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criminal. People wanting to walk and say look I

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tell. So very present too. Were you surprised that

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the priest didn't appear to you. No I was I was

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very surprised and I wasn't surprised in the sense

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that I didn't think there were that many police to

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take care of that many people. And in that sense I

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was not afraid. I was rather by then I was very

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conscious of knowing what to tell people what to

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do if in fact we were confronted by the police. So

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we were passing that word around suspecting their

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stay together stay in line. You know when to stop.

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If that happens what to do. Forget to ask those

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kinds of.

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We were. There was an element of fear.

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And then you went on straight down downtown. Do

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you sense any reaction from people who observed

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you from the sidewalk. Very varied reaction. Some.

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Some people had little children out and they had

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the little children holding up a sign. Some people

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were very very much against some of the

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construction workers were yelling things. That is

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not meaning.

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Some of the people Highland condition where you're

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going there is yelling things.

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But there wasn't any undue harassment from the

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people on the site. They were mostly upstairs in

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the.

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Enough at the draft board. All right. And then

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came in the bathroom. All right. We sat down

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really not knowing quite what to me again. It was

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very mixed up as to how we should go that there

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was so much frustration and just not knowing how

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in the world we could even make a dent. We really

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didn't know what you would do. It drop or no. We

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didn't know when we got there. We talked quite a

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good bit about what we should do while we were

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there. And it was Clyde Brown's suggestion that we

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keep the draft board closed by the time you got

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down there. It was late in the afternoon. Yeah I

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can't remember quite a time. Prices went up every

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day. Two three four. Well during time closing the

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gap for that day there was talk of keeping the

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people in the draft board in there. They were we

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knew that there were police in there and we didn't

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want to harass the women who worked there. We felt

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very much or some of us felt particularly the

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women felt that these women were kind of cornered

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into this kind of job. And we wanted to talk with

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them. And we had met them before and had talked

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with them before. In other words. Right. Or in

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other situations. So we were going to do a kind of

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challenge to them. There was no way to get anyone.

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There was no way to get and to talk to at all. The

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decision was to stay there and hold the door. Some

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people went back to get sleeping bags. And as

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people left enough people left so that there was

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no problem for them to come out. You said you want

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me to go home or leave. And some suggestion I was.

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My idea in some people's mind was the decision to

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stay there and keep the door closed to transport.

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And the assumption being that it would get at

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least keep the draft from drafting for while. Well

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by the time when the draft would close for the

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evening. Was there any kind of decision then that

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the next day would not open some way or another.

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There was.

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Yes. And you said you want to stay there all night.

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People got out. So the decision then was to come

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back in the morning after.

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How long did you stay there. I stay until dinner

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went home and had dinner and went back and most

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everybody was gone by then. So I talked with some

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other people.

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And then went back down this morning Thursday

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morning. My roommate and I went down to the

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airport about eight o'clock which was very partial.

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We had to get up at eight o'clock. And the

251
00:15:17.870 --> 00:15:20.080
decision at that point was for some people to sit

252
00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:23.390
in it. I decided not to go into the draft board

253
00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:25.970
mostly because it went to my position as director

254
00:15:25.970 --> 00:15:29.450
of the office. But I thought this would harm the

255
00:15:29.530 --> 00:15:32.990
YMCA more than I would have. Even though you're

256
00:15:32.990 --> 00:15:35.740
not representing the people would feel sure. Yeah.

257
00:15:35.870 --> 00:15:38.570
You know I am the director and there is no way to

258
00:15:38.990 --> 00:15:42.140
keep faith with that. And I was already in trouble

259
00:15:42.700 --> 00:15:45.800
last year. Having a great deal of trouble trying

260
00:15:45.800 --> 00:15:49.160
to explain my feelings about my anger and and

261
00:15:49.160 --> 00:15:52.430
feelings about that. So I felt that at that point

262
00:15:52.430 --> 00:15:55.250
it was not good for me to be arrested. So I didn't

263
00:15:55.250 --> 00:16:00.250
stay outside. My friends went inside and did sit

264
00:16:00.470 --> 00:16:04.220
in there. I was extremely frustrated because I

265
00:16:04.220 --> 00:16:06.380
felt very strongly that I wanted to be with them

266
00:16:06.950 --> 00:16:10.760
and to make my stand and clear to. But could you

267
00:16:10.760 --> 00:16:13.010
speak to any city official who might have been on

268
00:16:13.010 --> 00:16:18.010
the outside or the administrator or frankly at the

269
00:16:18.890 --> 00:16:20.870
point if the earliest part there were no

270
00:16:20.870 --> 00:16:24.410
administrators down there and the police were the

271
00:16:24.410 --> 00:16:26.420
police and the bishop were they.

272
00:16:28.920 --> 00:16:32.450
And Bejamin coming in a little later too. So no I

273
00:16:32.450 --> 00:16:35.640
did not have conversations with police politicians.

274
00:16:37.580 --> 00:16:40.190
There was come there were there were words when I

275
00:16:40.190 --> 00:16:43.990
was called confection. I wasn't screaming and

276
00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:44.600
yelling.

277
00:16:47.140 --> 00:16:51.240
I think they went in and sat down and with a lot

278
00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.000
of conversation. I heard from the people it

279
00:16:54.020 --> 00:16:57.660
compiles on building from the two women who work

280
00:16:57.660 --> 00:17:00.570
in there. That would be OK. Let me stay and tell

281
00:17:00.570 --> 00:17:03.320
me something to that effect. You heard I baby.

282
00:17:04.110 --> 00:17:08.040
Yeah I heard conversation about it. So I thought

283
00:17:08.040 --> 00:17:09.750
that it was gonna be all right. I don't know how

284
00:17:09.760 --> 00:17:12.890
you can stay there. And then I looked around and

285
00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:16.890
it was not going to be I. Meaningfully and Bishop

286
00:17:16.890 --> 00:17:21.890
Barack Obama seemed very angry on. Came over to us.

287
00:17:24.150 --> 00:17:27.720
And for those of us who were standing around that

288
00:17:27.900 --> 00:17:30.700
we were guilty by association pointing a finger at

289
00:17:32.290 --> 00:17:35.250
our client for that. I think that would hold up in

290
00:17:35.250 --> 00:17:39.210
court feeling very that it was very wrong for more

291
00:17:39.210 --> 00:17:43.420
people to be. The people inside needed support and

292
00:17:43.420 --> 00:17:48.420
witnesses so. But before I made that decision the

293
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.660
police did enter. The assistant chief level are

294
00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:57.630
liable and let everything inform the people that

295
00:17:57.630 --> 00:18:00.410
they would have to leave. Disturbing the peace.

296
00:18:04.590 --> 00:18:07.950
Tristesse on private property. So he did inform

297
00:18:07.950 --> 00:18:10.500
them of their rights. He did inform them that they

298
00:18:10.500 --> 00:18:13.710
had to leave. They refused to leave. They locked

299
00:18:13.710 --> 00:18:16.860
arms. I walked out tried to get in to see what was

300
00:18:16.860 --> 00:18:19.590
going on. And as I did look in there was one

301
00:18:19.590 --> 00:18:20.430
policeman who had.

302
00:18:25.600 --> 00:18:29.020
I can't remember the color of his iron. And he was

303
00:18:29.050 --> 00:18:32.480
beating people on the hand. And on the back more

304
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:35.630
than one. I couldn't tell they wouldn't let me in

305
00:18:35.990 --> 00:18:40.250
obviously but I could see this going on. I didn't

306
00:18:40.250 --> 00:18:44.200
hear cries or we saw kids. I saw in a few minutes

307
00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:46.860
both hands and the back and back and back. All

308
00:18:46.860 --> 00:18:49.950
right let me turn back. And my hands were were on

309
00:18:49.990 --> 00:18:50.480
the railing.

310
00:18:52.850 --> 00:18:56.440
Holding onto the railing. Being on the right. When

311
00:18:57.770 --> 00:19:02.390
they did pull out about three people had pulled

312
00:19:02.390 --> 00:19:05.140
out. I think the time when I got most upset or

313
00:19:05.170 --> 00:19:07.490
missed the first time I got the most upset was

314
00:19:07.490 --> 00:19:12.490
when they pulled out Terry Hamilton I think and

315
00:19:12.980 --> 00:19:15.800
one of the policemen hanging by his hair kind of

316
00:19:15.800 --> 00:19:18.380
back when I get scream and yell let go and tear

317
00:19:18.380 --> 00:19:23.380
through. Are necessary. Unbelievable. I've seen

318
00:19:23.760 --> 00:19:26.700
all this on television but I never thought that

319
00:19:26.760 --> 00:19:31.680
anyone could possibly be the most upset at that

320
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.440
point. And Bishop kept talking out in the driveway

321
00:19:34.490 --> 00:19:37.460
that everybody was guilty by association and then

322
00:19:37.470 --> 00:19:40.590
get out of here. The city attorney.

323
00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:48.880
That's when I walked up to see what was going on

324
00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:52.170
inside and to check on my roommate who was inside.

325
00:19:58.300 --> 00:20:02.380
I've been left behind by then brought out my

326
00:20:02.380 --> 00:20:05.260
roommate put her in the car. I got the keys from

327
00:20:05.260 --> 00:20:09.220
her so the car from my car went back to the car

328
00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:12.970
and on the way past our trading company.

329
00:20:21.150 --> 00:20:24.210
Went down. I went back to Kansas called as many

330
00:20:24.210 --> 00:20:28.220
people as I could. Mike down there when I read the

331
00:20:28.220 --> 00:20:33.220
statement you got. The student body president and

332
00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:40.880
Jerry Perkins too began to laugh leafleted. It is

333
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:44.220
possible by the time I got back down there they

334
00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:47.160
had gas are turning off your gas. I did not see

335
00:20:47.170 --> 00:20:51.650
the here. I went from there to the city hall. I

336
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:53.830
went in and talked with some of the people who

337
00:20:53.830 --> 00:20:56.040
have been arrested by me and how they were.

338
00:21:04.790 --> 00:21:07.590
They weren't letting people in or out of city hall.

339
00:21:07.690 --> 00:21:09.500
Once I got here they weren't gonna let me out.

340
00:21:09.570 --> 00:21:11.150
Then I had to prove that I.

341
00:21:14.730 --> 00:21:17.690
At that point everything that everybody was OK and

342
00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:21.900
went back to begin to rise. They only met in the

343
00:21:21.990 --> 00:21:26.770
GSB on this with Parkin and. I think after you

344
00:21:26.770 --> 00:21:31.460
came back several other ups and all the. We're

345
00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:35.570
talking about how how to go about a rally to raise

346
00:21:35.570 --> 00:21:38.000
money and to tell people what was going on.

347
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:46.890
As a rally and I did it quickly got a speaker said

348
00:21:46.890 --> 00:21:48.890
a highly publicized.

349
00:21:51.460 --> 00:21:55.720
Leaflets. Tell them call the Coleraine Union

350
00:21:55.720 --> 00:22:00.500
Station several them as quickly as possible.

351
00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:06.220
There had been an arrangement for a rally early

352
00:22:06.220 --> 00:22:08.950
that morning that didn't pan out. There was a

353
00:22:08.950 --> 00:22:13.270
threat or some more. I am sure that there were

354
00:22:13.310 --> 00:22:18.310
some people did show up quite a bit. A thousand

355
00:22:20.170 --> 00:22:23.100
say at least you showed up for that rally while

356
00:22:23.120 --> 00:22:27.270
the people were being arraigned downtown. I spent

357
00:22:27.270 --> 00:22:31.590
most of my time. Did you speak at the rally. Yes.

358
00:22:32.590 --> 00:22:35.660
What do you help people hurt. I tell them what

359
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:40.620
happened downtown and I tell them. That I felt

360
00:22:40.620 --> 00:22:44.550
that it was important to have. That we keep our

361
00:22:44.550 --> 00:22:48.060
hands on it. That's a very impressive thing track

362
00:22:49.210 --> 00:22:53.330
that we're on television and somebody we're

363
00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:56.020
demonstrating we're not disturbing the peace but

364
00:22:56.040 --> 00:22:56.290
mr.

365
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:04.120
It was important that we raise money to get our

366
00:23:04.120 --> 00:23:06.450
people out the bales were going to be high. In

367
00:23:06.460 --> 00:23:10.240
fact they more by that time people connecting with

368
00:23:10.870 --> 00:23:12.220
the mail was tippity.

369
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:19.400
People were incredible. They stayed all afternoon

370
00:23:20.420 --> 00:23:24.040
did not really apply. So we have an open mind. So

371
00:23:24.050 --> 00:23:24.680
several people.

372
00:23:26.700 --> 00:23:27.960
What did you do after you spoke.

373
00:23:30.990 --> 00:23:32.970
Listen to let other people speak and then I went

374
00:23:32.970 --> 00:23:35.070
back down to second our respective people through

375
00:23:35.070 --> 00:23:37.620
the bar and found out how they were and what was

376
00:23:37.620 --> 00:23:41.520
going on. They let you in there but there was no I

377
00:23:41.520 --> 00:23:44.790
was outside. Oh yeah. They were like people in my

378
00:23:44.790 --> 00:23:47.890
head. They had not been called a bigot. McCain's.

379
00:23:52.380 --> 00:23:56.310
So I wouldn't want to come back and forth from

380
00:23:56.310 --> 00:23:57.190
city hall to Canada.

381
00:24:03.390 --> 00:24:06.880
General rapping When I was around and we

382
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:08.980
recommended that people stay there there was a

383
00:24:08.980 --> 00:24:12.220
move to go down to City Hall and all those people.

384
00:24:12.250 --> 00:24:14.960
But we decided it would be more important in light

385
00:24:15.010 --> 00:24:17.910
of their sentences. What would happen to that

386
00:24:18.150 --> 00:24:23.150
there. Many people really responded well. Farms at

387
00:24:25.850 --> 00:24:27.260
that point in time to go down.

388
00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:35.560
And was there for about three people for nine

389
00:24:35.560 --> 00:24:37.300
months at which point

390
00:24:41.610 --> 00:24:46.610
the you find Geoff Clark. First the bailout. Yes.

391
00:24:47.950 --> 00:24:51.560
That's the thing I keep asking. Fight the fight.

392
00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:56.050
You don't get some incredible and those of us who

393
00:24:56.050 --> 00:24:58.580
are sitting in the courtroom responded with the

394
00:24:58.580 --> 00:25:03.580
negative side. You know that's just so. And those

395
00:25:04.670 --> 00:25:07.470
of us knew it back to what you could say and

396
00:25:07.490 --> 00:25:09.320
couldn't believe that he'd been arrested that

397
00:25:09.350 --> 00:25:12.320
anyway. So we were just incredulous. And there was

398
00:25:12.320 --> 00:25:15.290
a moment in the courtroom at which point Makani.

399
00:25:20.120 --> 00:25:23.360
Improper behavior for the courtroom and he had

400
00:25:23.360 --> 00:25:28.360
also at one point ask people not to a peace. Some

401
00:25:28.600 --> 00:25:32.630
of our friends came into the ring. So before that

402
00:25:32.660 --> 00:25:34.850
he had been upset about people raising.

403
00:25:42.370 --> 00:25:46.090
And we are told that this was a court of law. I

404
00:25:46.090 --> 00:25:46.680
believe here.

405
00:25:50.920 --> 00:25:55.920
So when the money came we asked to be cleared. We

406
00:25:56.170 --> 00:25:58.360
left and at that point I heard someone say

407
00:25:58.370 --> 00:26:02.980
apparently people. And I heard McKinney say this

408
00:26:03.320 --> 00:26:07.490
contempt of court and called fowling.

409
00:26:09.530 --> 00:26:13.130
Yes to the front. And we had all been one Navy

410
00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:17.140
corpsman at that point which also upset you didn't

411
00:26:17.140 --> 00:26:19.660
hear the other phrase. No I did not hear

412
00:26:19.840 --> 00:26:24.640
motherfucker. Now before I go on dates you can

413
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:29.640
edit that there was another term you. But I can't

414
00:26:30.080 --> 00:26:33.900
recall. Maybe that was 05. But all together the

415
00:26:34.070 --> 00:26:36.410
Navigenics that they say was you. I did not hear.

416
00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:37.550
I heard the people

417
00:26:39.910 --> 00:26:40.930
which I agree with.

418
00:26:44.250 --> 00:26:48.780
But I did not return them as we were downstairs.

419
00:26:50.840 --> 00:26:52.230
I came downstairs and she told.

420
00:26:56.420 --> 00:26:59.910
Which absolutely horrified you couldn't believe he

421
00:26:59.980 --> 00:27:00.500
had done that.

422
00:27:06.630 --> 00:27:07.740
Very improper procedure.

423
00:27:10.910 --> 00:27:14.240
So we went back. You know we waited and all the

424
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.180
people had been worn out. We took our people back

425
00:27:17.180 --> 00:27:20.560
to the rally where they spoke in.

426
00:27:25.620 --> 00:27:29.850
I say we decide at that point or one of the things

427
00:27:29.850 --> 00:27:32.190
that I was hearing from so many people was how

428
00:27:32.190 --> 00:27:35.430
confused they were. And I myself were very

429
00:27:35.430 --> 00:27:39.360
confused. But we figured that at that point after

430
00:27:39.360 --> 00:27:41.780
that much data had been generated from the rallies

431
00:27:41.800 --> 00:27:46.320
etc. that we needed to do a great deal of talking

432
00:27:46.470 --> 00:27:50.260
to people and teach our children for Universal

433
00:27:50.500 --> 00:27:55.500
that this was a mirror. Yes. Well this is we

434
00:27:56.700 --> 00:28:00.000
talked about this before that. Even so several of

435
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.220
us got together and talked about the kinds of

436
00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:04.790
topics that we value to be raised by you know

437
00:28:04.870 --> 00:28:08.880
environment to you which is working with various

438
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:10.590
people. Jill Ringle factionally.

439
00:28:23.130 --> 00:28:26.490
So we had particular and I'm sure you know some of

440
00:28:26.490 --> 00:28:29.510
the topics that were raised to wanted to do this

441
00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:32.080
that I taught for three or four days. Right.

442
00:28:37.110 --> 00:28:41.850
How to respond. I think someone armed or whatever

443
00:28:41.850 --> 00:28:46.000
they were. Pretty good. Mostly women. You know it

444
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.720
was very mixed. People very interested in you know

445
00:28:48.820 --> 00:28:49.150
I like.

446
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.120
And we talked in general about such things.

447
00:29:00.800 --> 00:29:04.220
Economic aid continues to keep people in

448
00:29:04.220 --> 00:29:06.080
traditional roles that.

449
00:29:11.970 --> 00:29:16.970
So anyone. But those kind of connections there was

450
00:29:17.070 --> 00:29:18.020
that then.

451
00:29:20.030 --> 00:29:22.670
We also talked a lot about violence in the.

452
00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:28.630
Just in general talking about the oppression of

453
00:29:28.630 --> 00:29:29.020
women.

454
00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:32.360
This all ties here.

455
00:29:37.900 --> 00:29:39.940
So that was the gist of our discussion in that

456
00:29:39.940 --> 00:29:42.190
particular security seminar.

457
00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:47.790
And aside from in addition to sermonize they also

458
00:29:48.120 --> 00:29:52.260
have other arrangements with range students in

459
00:29:52.260 --> 00:29:56.430
contact with the community. Were you active in a

460
00:29:57.410 --> 00:30:01.440
somewhat somewhat. Mostly. Other people handle

461
00:30:01.460 --> 00:30:04.230
that. But back to someone in terms of having calls

462
00:30:04.230 --> 00:30:06.180
from community people who wanted to talk to

463
00:30:06.270 --> 00:30:11.270
students as you saw yesterday. How did you like to

464
00:30:11.910 --> 00:30:15.060
go to. No I was mostly involved with gangs and.

465
00:30:16.170 --> 00:30:17.300
Terribly wrong with everything.

466
00:30:21.540 --> 00:30:24.120
There were few other teams that had met. I think

467
00:30:24.130 --> 00:30:27.150
it's very important to bring in here what had

468
00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:30.080
happened previously to the Cambodia evening

469
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:35.400
incident. When you got Rowby was arrested and all

470
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:38.670
that happened just off the bat so that a lot of

471
00:30:38.670 --> 00:30:43.020
the things that came out of her lap the second two

472
00:30:43.020 --> 00:30:47.400
weeks were also as a result of the Rosie thing.

473
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:50.520
There were meetings at the white on white racism

474
00:30:51.090 --> 00:30:53.950
on what white people knew you could do. Support

475
00:30:53.950 --> 00:30:57.190
for moving of the things that came out of that for

476
00:30:57.190 --> 00:31:01.580
example was a heavy defense fund but also a

477
00:31:01.630 --> 00:31:06.340
discussion of how to speak with the people in the

478
00:31:06.340 --> 00:31:09.260
community particularly the police officials. You

479
00:31:09.280 --> 00:31:13.700
turn to people McKinnie. And that kind of thing so

480
00:31:13.700 --> 00:31:16.820
that all of his time together and we had been

481
00:31:16.820 --> 00:31:19.850
planning for quite a while to do something of this

482
00:31:19.850 --> 00:31:24.850
nature are sitting quite well. I was not sure that

483
00:31:25.390 --> 00:31:28.490
I thought it was good for the black students to be.

484
00:31:32.660 --> 00:31:37.660
It's very hot at that point maybe during all this

485
00:31:37.830 --> 00:31:42.760
stuff here including Campbell you come because all

486
00:31:42.930 --> 00:31:45.810
this stuff is still going on. And it seems to me

487
00:31:45.810 --> 00:31:46.080
that.

488
00:31:48.130 --> 00:31:52.570
When emotions are that high and prejudice against

489
00:31:52.570 --> 00:31:56.630
whatever we want. Down come down no matter what

490
00:31:56.630 --> 00:31:59.510
the issue is it seems to me that McKinney and

491
00:31:59.520 --> 00:32:01.700
Bishop were quite obviously quite prejudiced.

492
00:32:03.760 --> 00:32:06.970
Current students had to back and time was not

493
00:32:06.970 --> 00:32:10.360
convinced that I was a good idea. I don't want

494
00:32:10.360 --> 00:32:12.930
people to be with McCain. Fisher.

495
00:32:15.150 --> 00:32:17.190
Has it turned out I think it turned out all right.

496
00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:21.220
I don't think any conflict is not about me. Who

497
00:32:21.260 --> 00:32:24.750
held an informal meeting today. There were no

498
00:32:24.750 --> 00:32:27.020
black students present or whether it was.

499
00:32:32.950 --> 00:32:35.530
So they do go to dinner and I do get a report of

500
00:32:35.530 --> 00:32:35.710
that.

501
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:47.570
At this point I'd like to ask some opinions and

502
00:32:47.580 --> 00:32:50.690
observations you might have on all these events

503
00:32:51.980 --> 00:32:54.350
when you enter into these events. What were your

504
00:32:54.350 --> 00:32:58.930
aim both as a participant and as a representative

505
00:32:59.760 --> 00:33:04.760
of. You among women on that. Well it's a really

506
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:10.810
difficult question but mine in general were to

507
00:33:11.500 --> 00:33:15.610
stand up and be counted. I felt that it was time

508
00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:19.480
that that I made my voice clear that I could no

509
00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:22.600
longer in this country be quiet or I was agreeing

510
00:33:22.600 --> 00:33:25.870
with what was going on in Mexico. Hardly don't

511
00:33:25.870 --> 00:33:30.870
agree. I feel very strongly about my fears for

512
00:33:31.030 --> 00:33:34.670
what's happening to this country in some. It's

513
00:33:34.760 --> 00:33:39.720
going to be very much like the McCarthy era like

514
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:40.140
Hitler.

515
00:33:43.190 --> 00:33:46.610
Just lots of things. I feel very distressed about

516
00:33:46.610 --> 00:33:51.610
it and extremely angry. So my aims in general were

517
00:33:51.620 --> 00:33:55.400
that to stand up and account in particular or to

518
00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:59.810
make it clear that and as a woman did this war

519
00:33:59.810 --> 00:34:03.020
affects me too that I'm not simply out there to

520
00:34:03.020 --> 00:34:06.320
bring our boys home or child. So I am. But I'm out

521
00:34:06.320 --> 00:34:08.450
there to say that the money that goes to this war

522
00:34:09.230 --> 00:34:10.060
doesn't go to me.

523
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:16.910
And I don't like that. I was there to say that

524
00:34:18.050 --> 00:34:21.110
that women are in the front line of the activity

525
00:34:21.260 --> 00:34:23.080
shifter's the men are.

526
00:34:28.550 --> 00:34:30.950
That we refuse could be second class citizens.

527
00:34:34.570 --> 00:34:36.880
Connected with it with all of these issues is a

528
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:38.760
system under which we know that.

529
00:34:41.240 --> 00:34:44.510
That women are in fact oppressed and second class

530
00:34:45.080 --> 00:34:50.080
behind our men deserve better. And that behind

531
00:34:50.560 --> 00:34:53.030
them I mean there's a wall here behind every man

532
00:34:54.090 --> 00:34:57.230
that we are supposedly not power behind the throne.

533
00:34:58.070 --> 00:35:02.070
That's what we're given. Yes power behind. And we

534
00:35:02.090 --> 00:35:05.410
only behind hiding more. You're right. There you

535
00:35:05.410 --> 00:35:06.480
go. Maybe more.

536
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:10.690
I'm not sure that's comfortable for us.

537
00:35:14.100 --> 00:35:17.300
It leads us into an implementation so unexpected.

538
00:35:19.250 --> 00:35:22.610
So I no longer want to spend it very difficult but

539
00:35:22.610 --> 00:35:26.080
it could be done. Well cop. Fascinating case. I

540
00:35:26.100 --> 00:35:28.950
want to make it clear there that women have the

541
00:35:28.950 --> 00:35:30.480
right to speak and speak about.

542
00:35:34.250 --> 00:35:37.110
Now you actually participate in some of the events.

543
00:35:37.530 --> 00:35:40.250
How effective do you think they were these rallies

544
00:35:40.250 --> 00:35:43.470
marking these demonstrations and furthering the

545
00:35:43.470 --> 00:35:47.250
aims that you have already. Well we kept the

546
00:35:47.250 --> 00:35:49.480
grandcourt close for a couple of days. I don't

547
00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:51.850
think the country changes as a result of that but

548
00:35:51.850 --> 00:35:52.660
I kind of see that.

549
00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:10.970
The people are ready to to rid ourselves of racism.

550
00:36:16.610 --> 00:36:19.130
In terms of being terribly affected I think that

551
00:36:19.130 --> 00:36:22.490
the data that was that was aroused that was

552
00:36:22.490 --> 00:36:25.240
affected I'm not sure that we can ever say.

553
00:36:28.260 --> 00:36:30.680
There's so little that people can do and I think

554
00:36:30.690 --> 00:36:33.080
that that question indicates our powerlessness.

555
00:36:35.610 --> 00:36:39.240
All right people are writing letters. Be people.

556
00:36:40.420 --> 00:36:44.420
People are going to Washington. But I have grave

557
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:47.920
doubts as to what good that does. I will continue

558
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:51.740
to do it no matter what channel are open. But I

559
00:36:51.780 --> 00:36:53.120
still see that.

560
00:36:55.710 --> 00:36:58.940
Specifically what happened here on the campus and

561
00:36:59.020 --> 00:37:02.200
in the crowd. Do you feel for example that the

562
00:37:02.200 --> 00:37:07.200
marches alienated or confirmed in their own mind

563
00:37:08.410 --> 00:37:12.220
what how people feared. Is this a good thing.

564
00:37:12.310 --> 00:37:12.790
Another thing.

565
00:37:16.300 --> 00:37:20.060
In most ways no. I don't like to see people so

566
00:37:20.060 --> 00:37:23.500
split. And I'd like to see a poll I think in this

567
00:37:23.500 --> 00:37:27.070
town. In that sense. No I don't feel it's a good

568
00:37:27.070 --> 00:37:30.430
thing in another way. I don't see another way. It

569
00:37:30.430 --> 00:37:34.750
seems to me that that we could have continued to

570
00:37:35.230 --> 00:37:38.100
bumble along making assumptions about where

571
00:37:38.110 --> 00:37:41.860
people's beliefs and values systems were. And at

572
00:37:41.860 --> 00:37:45.690
least at this point we can be pretty clear about

573
00:37:45.700 --> 00:37:48.700
that. Did you have any doubts about people

574
00:37:48.700 --> 00:37:53.700
employed. No but they're up front now. I have some

575
00:37:55.140 --> 00:37:58.890
doubts and I'm kind of dismayed that it happened.

576
00:37:59.260 --> 00:38:03.650
Reaction has been. Ahead we'll take you to the

577
00:38:03.660 --> 00:38:07.420
reaction to the exclusion of bombing a home that

578
00:38:07.520 --> 00:38:10.230
who may or may not be in connection with when it

579
00:38:10.230 --> 00:38:13.610
happened. Still ahead the reaction to the

580
00:38:13.630 --> 00:38:16.950
demonstration in the arrest and the rallies on the

581
00:38:16.950 --> 00:38:20.850
campus are more pain. And you haven't been

582
00:38:21.110 --> 00:38:23.950
answering that. I have held on.

583
00:38:26.590 --> 00:38:30.120
I'm pleased at how many people participate. I'm

584
00:38:30.270 --> 00:38:35.270
very. I heard that it frightened so many people

585
00:38:36.690 --> 00:38:41.250
and change minds. How did they. You couldn't get

586
00:38:41.250 --> 00:38:44.530
in touch with the townspeople. I don't know.

587
00:38:46.950 --> 00:38:50.720
I really don't have any conversation.

588
00:38:55.330 --> 00:39:00.140
And I think everybody would like a people reaction.

589
00:39:00.930 --> 00:39:04.520
Townspeople townspeople. The reactions were nice

590
00:39:04.520 --> 00:39:08.200
when you got a boy out of here. Now these

591
00:39:08.250 --> 00:39:11.600
reactions of what kinds of people were they.

592
00:39:11.600 --> 00:39:14.030
Professionals the professionals. I think business

593
00:39:14.030 --> 00:39:19.030
people are they housewives. They are all on the

594
00:39:19.350 --> 00:39:23.540
board ABC and all the above. So in other words you

595
00:39:23.630 --> 00:39:25.760
you have a family you know pretty much across the

596
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:29.750
board across the audience of nonacademic or people.

597
00:39:29.990 --> 00:39:33.670
They ranged from I support what you're doing but I

598
00:39:33.680 --> 00:39:38.150
couldn't do it to you. I you're absolutely wrong.

599
00:39:44.210 --> 00:39:47.540
Noncontroversial things. The president is right.

600
00:39:47.590 --> 00:39:51.260
We elected him. We should support a president. No.

601
00:39:51.710 --> 00:39:55.210
Had a rough estimate. Power to balance with the

602
00:39:55.540 --> 00:39:58.030
one person thing you're doing. Right. But I

603
00:39:58.030 --> 00:39:59.740
couldn't do what you were doing the right thing

604
00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:02.970
and burying me. You shouldn't be doing it favor.

605
00:40:04.540 --> 00:40:07.450
So I might I go out and. Friday was pretty well

606
00:40:07.460 --> 00:40:07.950
balanced.

607
00:40:12.750 --> 00:40:17.750
How well did you know. Very well. And I find it so

608
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:20.670
hard you ask that these reactions. Do you feel

609
00:40:20.670 --> 00:40:24.440
they do. I mean does them or have you just sort of

610
00:40:25.140 --> 00:40:27.660
underestimated their reaction. I guess I

611
00:40:27.720 --> 00:40:31.910
underestimated Iran and I didn't expect didn't

612
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:33.740
expect this kind of reaction at all.

613
00:40:36.030 --> 00:40:41.030
In my mind if this. Were there specific things

614
00:40:41.520 --> 00:40:43.770
that they objected to. I mean did they object to

615
00:40:43.820 --> 00:40:47.270
say more to the arrest than the draft board than

616
00:40:47.270 --> 00:40:50.040
say the rallies on the campus. We'll get more to

617
00:40:50.080 --> 00:40:52.250
sitting down in the middle of a busy intersection

618
00:40:52.270 --> 00:40:55.550
and then just to occupy the armory. I'd like to

619
00:40:55.550 --> 00:40:59.890
think of it like an all other things that we can.

620
00:41:02.340 --> 00:41:06.090
What is the underlying theme. So I think hear that

621
00:41:06.240 --> 00:41:10.350
somewhere found the breakdown somewhere that one

622
00:41:10.350 --> 00:41:12.180
of the interesting things that was never raised

623
00:41:12.210 --> 00:41:13.920
however was the violence that was used by the

624
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:17.190
police. So whenever people spoke of violence they

625
00:41:17.190 --> 00:41:22.190
spoke about schemes. Being back. Did they did they

626
00:41:22.590 --> 00:41:26.180
feel that they in the actions of a few. Well no

627
00:41:26.190 --> 00:41:29.730
cameras in downtown in these actions were violent.

628
00:41:30.570 --> 00:41:33.520
Yeah they were violent vividly. Commander.

629
00:41:35.810 --> 00:41:39.080
Yeah it's only to get important word by the very

630
00:41:39.090 --> 00:41:42.630
handy. Do you think this was crap colored by what

631
00:41:42.630 --> 00:41:45.280
they had read and heard about seeing about what

632
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:47.620
had happened only happened when

633
00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:52.290
they were sort of protecting what might happen

634
00:41:52.290 --> 00:41:52.790
here in the.

635
00:41:55.090 --> 00:41:59.140
That's partially. But I think it is a bit too. You

636
00:41:59.250 --> 00:42:00.960
know the difference in seeing it on other

637
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:02.150
candidates and having another.

638
00:42:05.380 --> 00:42:07.600
And possibility of having the judge say.

639
00:42:13.650 --> 00:42:13.890
And

640
00:42:16.700 --> 00:42:21.420
I'm from the south. Estimates that the things that

641
00:42:21.420 --> 00:42:24.990
happened here were not all unlike the very open

642
00:42:24.990 --> 00:42:26.660
lynchings of the very subtle which.

643
00:42:30.870 --> 00:42:35.820
Where did you find. Sort of the same thing again.

644
00:42:36.120 --> 00:42:39.100
The student here is going to.

645
00:42:48.250 --> 00:42:50.310
Yes most of that time you heard.

646
00:42:52.620 --> 00:42:55.620
You know having somehow idealistically thought

647
00:42:55.620 --> 00:42:59.160
that perhaps we the. And Tony Abbott not know

648
00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:03.790
there is a traditional division between in a

649
00:43:03.940 --> 00:43:07.120
particularly small university town during town

650
00:43:07.170 --> 00:43:12.170
people and the academic community. Very many. It's

651
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:16.240
clear that there is a degree of tension and I

652
00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:19.780
don't know what the situation is here before these

653
00:43:19.780 --> 00:43:22.060
events occurred. But do you feel that there was

654
00:43:22.060 --> 00:43:25.630
any tension beforehand. There was increased by the

655
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:26.230
sheer.

656
00:43:32.180 --> 00:43:34.610
Part of the tension I think it is a fear of the

657
00:43:34.610 --> 00:43:39.610
unknown. And I think that. So you are jealous that

658
00:43:41.510 --> 00:43:44.840
students do have the freedom to move around.

659
00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:49.550
I don't think they have that much freedom not a

660
00:43:49.550 --> 00:43:53.080
planet within that hour. But do you have more than

661
00:43:53.080 --> 00:43:54.030
a set of principles.

662
00:44:01.210 --> 00:44:03.710
Was there and these reactions you got from the

663
00:44:03.710 --> 00:44:07.420
townspeople or was there any criticism of the know

664
00:44:07.590 --> 00:44:11.870
ministration for their role. So I didn't get as

665
00:44:11.870 --> 00:44:15.840
much of that. I was getting enough criticism just

666
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:19.580
by virtue of what I did. So I didn't really add to

667
00:44:19.580 --> 00:44:24.000
typing everything and damning enough of my own.

668
00:44:25.640 --> 00:44:27.500
And I still feel very strongly that.

669
00:44:30.580 --> 00:44:34.010
That not enough people and not enough time to be.

670
00:44:34.600 --> 00:44:36.820
Campus ministry people were involved.

671
00:44:41.410 --> 00:44:46.410
They're both as. Ministers talking him out. And

672
00:44:47.050 --> 00:44:48.820
the people got and.

673
00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:59.580
It seems to me that our expanding did an admirable

674
00:44:59.580 --> 00:45:02.010
job. He's in a very tight position and he's been

675
00:45:02.010 --> 00:45:05.610
stuck with a lot of disciplinary stuff and is

676
00:45:05.610 --> 00:45:08.850
nothing new in education at all. So I think he

677
00:45:08.850 --> 00:45:11.850
handled himself extremely well. I was not at all

678
00:45:11.850 --> 00:45:14.970
pleased with John Roy but I haven't replaced John

679
00:45:14.980 --> 00:45:19.590
Mark quite a while. Charlie was very insistent

680
00:45:19.590 --> 00:45:21.090
that within the armoury.

681
00:45:28.310 --> 00:45:31.130
When you come out repressive about it. I can tell

682
00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:33.250
and we will great your power.

683
00:45:36.870 --> 00:45:41.610
His speech was very educational. Healthy. I think

684
00:45:41.610 --> 00:45:43.880
that will relate and did the best that you could.

685
00:45:47.210 --> 00:45:51.480
Not sure what more he could done. I'm not sure

686
00:45:51.510 --> 00:45:56.400
what. How he sees his role anyway. But the people

687
00:45:56.400 --> 00:46:01.080
that I felt most pleased with the one person

688
00:46:01.110 --> 00:46:04.830
particularly. And as our friend Dana we need a

689
00:46:04.830 --> 00:46:08.630
visual nothing. It seems to me that it's very

690
00:46:08.630 --> 00:46:13.040
crucial to talk to about what kinds of risks

691
00:46:13.070 --> 00:46:17.180
people are able to take very difficult during all

692
00:46:17.180 --> 00:46:20.450
that time for any of us through any kind of

693
00:46:20.450 --> 00:46:23.450
supposed authority which is ridiculous. But any

694
00:46:23.450 --> 00:46:28.450
and any kind of a bind on here who is paying or

695
00:46:29.510 --> 00:46:32.440
whatever. Very difficult to be involved in that

696
00:46:32.810 --> 00:46:36.170
and know that our job is at stake that the

697
00:46:36.170 --> 00:46:36.940
opinions are.

698
00:46:41.810 --> 00:46:45.310
Etc. So I feel very good about how I handled

699
00:46:45.380 --> 00:46:48.480
things. He can go any more than he did. I wish

700
00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:51.420
that he didn't have to be in that kind of position

701
00:46:51.420 --> 00:46:54.410
so that he could say more. Things back.

702
00:46:56.490 --> 00:47:01.210
How do you feel the I you to comment on an

703
00:47:01.220 --> 00:47:04.420
official. What about the city officials and how

704
00:47:04.420 --> 00:47:08.830
they handle themselves. Know. Not every day but

705
00:47:08.970 --> 00:47:09.630
thing for sure.

706
00:47:11.720 --> 00:47:15.050
I feel that Katie has handled himself very poorly.

707
00:47:15.710 --> 00:47:20.110
I think he must be. And in some ways so frightened

708
00:47:20.190 --> 00:47:21.030
and so

709
00:47:23.130 --> 00:47:28.130
tight that he is not able to function. Minister of

710
00:47:28.310 --> 00:47:32.090
justice who is making public statements at various

711
00:47:32.090 --> 00:47:34.820
and sundry meetings. He has made phone calls to

712
00:47:34.820 --> 00:47:39.320
people to protest any kind of protest to protect

713
00:47:39.320 --> 00:47:42.740
any kind of outspoken document on racism

714
00:47:42.770 --> 00:47:45.880
particularly coming from the why has he phoned

715
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:48.110
your views. He has been called numerous.

716
00:47:50.850 --> 00:47:53.290
Environmental letter that was sent from the Y or

717
00:47:53.290 --> 00:47:58.190
the defense made it very difficult for NCAA board

718
00:47:58.310 --> 00:47:58.670
members.

719
00:48:03.770 --> 00:48:06.110
And his his activities and his behavior.

720
00:48:07.990 --> 00:48:12.710
Deplorable. We are. She made these calls from Robi

721
00:48:12.710 --> 00:48:16.850
you confirmed before the trial. Now after the

722
00:48:16.850 --> 00:48:18.340
trial and we tend to marijuana.

723
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:24.430
And the other tropical fish that come off the

724
00:48:24.430 --> 00:48:26.590
other return you sought medical.

725
00:48:33.450 --> 00:48:37.150
And I feel this is extremely racist and very very

726
00:48:37.150 --> 00:48:42.150
important Bishop. It is very clear that his

727
00:48:42.300 --> 00:48:44.250
beliefs are in fact marched.

728
00:48:46.430 --> 00:48:51.350
March is an extremely difficult.

729
00:49:01.690 --> 00:49:03.040
How do you think these men.

730
00:49:06.140 --> 00:49:09.440
Well I can't be dragging out the hand I mean by

731
00:49:09.460 --> 00:49:13.560
yet. And I think your guest. I covered and I've

732
00:49:13.560 --> 00:49:14.770
been dragging my nappy more.

733
00:49:22.490 --> 00:49:26.330
I think a couple of them not very are trying very

734
00:49:26.330 --> 00:49:31.330
hard to understand. I can't blanket Lee Daniels. I

735
00:49:32.180 --> 00:49:34.240
can condemn the system under which they work.

736
00:49:41.630 --> 00:49:43.160
Many other peace talks.

737
00:49:46.720 --> 00:49:48.470
When there was no raid you know if they had

738
00:49:48.900 --> 00:49:51.680
proxies in front of them I could at least see you

739
00:49:51.680 --> 00:49:55.250
know a flare up. Any reason for shooting valuably.

740
00:50:48.550 --> 00:50:51.790
My name is outstanding and I'm the dean of

741
00:50:51.790 --> 00:50:53.140
students at Iowa State.

742
00:50:56.580 --> 00:51:01.580
I was involved in almost all of the events as an

743
00:51:02.550 --> 00:51:07.550
observer and felt important for myself to be

744
00:51:09.120 --> 00:51:12.930
physically present that most of the events.

745
00:51:15.210 --> 00:51:18.990
From Cambodia on if that's the beginning and I

746
00:51:18.990 --> 00:51:21.360
really do believe that it is although we had

747
00:51:23.040 --> 00:51:26.160
considerable unrest on the campus over the past

748
00:51:26.160 --> 00:51:30.780
two or three years of course relative to the war

749
00:51:30.810 --> 00:51:35.810
issue I was sitting with several students

750
00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:43.400
the night of April 30th when on the campus when

751
00:51:43.620 --> 00:51:48.120
the news of the president's decision to enter

752
00:51:48.120 --> 00:51:53.120
Cambodia was it was announced and it appeared at

753
00:51:53.460 --> 00:51:58.260
that time that student reaction would be rather

754
00:51:58.260 --> 00:51:58.920
intense.

755
00:52:02.710 --> 00:52:05.230
There was great confusion among the seven or eight

756
00:52:05.230 --> 00:52:09.360
students I was meeting with and they did was is

757
00:52:09.430 --> 00:52:12.100
the union. Yes it was. And the union.

758
00:52:14.660 --> 00:52:18.200
These were not the kind of students that would

759
00:52:18.630 --> 00:52:22.850
that normally participated in anti-war protests

760
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:25.970
kinds of things but they were terribly alarmed at

761
00:52:25.970 --> 00:52:30.970
that point. On Friday May 1st. We talked a great

762
00:52:32.090 --> 00:52:36.230
deal about this as a staff in our office and tried

763
00:52:36.230 --> 00:52:40.160
to speculate a bit on what might happen. And as a

764
00:52:40.160 --> 00:52:44.180
result we had to establish any kind of guidelines

765
00:52:44.180 --> 00:52:48.780
for how you to react to what might occur. Well he

766
00:52:48.850 --> 00:52:52.190
has many times in the past we've discussed this.

767
00:52:52.220 --> 00:52:54.770
We don't have any written guidelines as such. We

768
00:52:54.770 --> 00:52:58.490
do have adequate university policies as such in

769
00:52:58.490 --> 00:53:03.490
terms of reacting to disrupt disruption. We feel

770
00:53:05.150 --> 00:53:07.640
that it's very important for us as the staff to be

771
00:53:07.700 --> 00:53:11.810
close to where the students are not necessarily in

772
00:53:11.810 --> 00:53:16.220
support of what they're doing but to be there to

773
00:53:16.220 --> 00:53:18.770
be of whatever assistance we might especially to

774
00:53:18.770 --> 00:53:23.770
serve as a buffer. Interpreter persons who might

775
00:53:24.710 --> 00:53:27.350
be able to keep things a little bit more rational.

776
00:53:29.630 --> 00:53:32.780
I did myself participate in the Saturday May 2nd

777
00:53:33.030 --> 00:53:38.030
Peoples rally downtown. I would hand had the

778
00:53:38.810 --> 00:53:42.500
students who ran who organized and contact you

779
00:53:42.500 --> 00:53:46.100
about it. A while it wasn't some. Oh yes. It

780
00:53:46.100 --> 00:53:48.350
wasn't so much that they had contacted me. It was

781
00:53:48.350 --> 00:53:52.100
just that I feel that it's one of my role is to be

782
00:53:52.100 --> 00:53:54.860
around for such things. And I sort of talk with

783
00:53:54.860 --> 00:53:56.690
them. And I knew that they were going to be there

784
00:53:56.690 --> 00:53:59.750
and I felt that I should be there. And I was from

785
00:54:00.710 --> 00:54:03.680
the beginning and simply talked with several the

786
00:54:04.040 --> 00:54:06.350
person there wasn't someone who wasn't entirely a

787
00:54:06.350 --> 00:54:09.470
student rally at all. People's rally evacuated a

788
00:54:09.470 --> 00:54:13.880
lot of townspeople. And finally. When they talk to

789
00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:16.430
you at this time and perhaps throughout all these

790
00:54:16.430 --> 00:54:19.160
events. Was there any hesitancy about talking to

791
00:54:19.160 --> 00:54:21.140
you today. I didn't feel that they were

792
00:54:21.140 --> 00:54:23.780
withholding private information from you. Not at

793
00:54:23.780 --> 00:54:24.740
that time no.

794
00:54:27.740 --> 00:54:30.840
The students I have to restrict my comments to the

795
00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:33.030
student because that's of course a lot of people I

796
00:54:33.030 --> 00:54:36.480
was interested in primarily. I didn't see my own

797
00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:39.720
role as trying to trying to manipulate their their

798
00:54:39.720 --> 00:54:42.840
actions in any way. And they didn't seem to see my

799
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:47.700
role as that either. And I tried to be there as a

800
00:54:48.030 --> 00:54:52.080
as a friend and as a person who cared about the

801
00:54:52.080 --> 00:54:52.480
students.

802
00:54:55.510 --> 00:55:00.510
The big event then then the event at Kent State or

803
00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:05.860
the students were shot obviously was the one which

804
00:55:05.860 --> 00:55:10.660
triggered tremendous emotional reaction. In my

805
00:55:10.660 --> 00:55:13.960
experience three years on this campus and several

806
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:16.470
years at Michigan State and Student Affairs I've

807
00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:21.180
never witnessed any kind of intensity emotionally

808
00:55:22.540 --> 00:55:24.910
on the part of students as I've seen that night

809
00:55:24.910 --> 00:55:27.450
and one day and then the subsequent days. The

810
00:55:27.460 --> 00:55:32.080
following days you would. What did you do at the

811
00:55:32.080 --> 00:55:35.760
People's Rally. Did you actually end up there. No.

812
00:55:36.040 --> 00:55:37.870
Well I was sort of I would call myself a

813
00:55:37.870 --> 00:55:41.050
participant observer. I feel rather deeply about

814
00:55:41.050 --> 00:55:43.590
many of these issues myself and I did marching in

815
00:55:43.600 --> 00:55:45.580
the parade and then went to the draft board as

816
00:55:45.580 --> 00:55:50.310
well and sat down and and listen to some of the

817
00:55:50.380 --> 00:55:52.960
person speaking. Did you have any apprehension

818
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:56.470
about being that you actually might be identified

819
00:55:56.470 --> 00:55:58.810
as an official sanctioned by the university since

820
00:55:58.810 --> 00:56:03.280
you are an administrator. Not at that time. No. I

821
00:56:03.280 --> 00:56:07.000
felt I was operating as a citizen of Ames. It was

822
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:10.930
a Saturday. It was a planned march. It was

823
00:56:11.710 --> 00:56:14.980
supported by that by the city officials. That is

824
00:56:15.240 --> 00:56:17.380
great for me. It was granted and so forth.

825
00:56:19.930 --> 00:56:22.630
So I was I was I guess as much a participant as I

826
00:56:22.630 --> 00:56:26.650
wasn't. I'm free. And then you continue with the

827
00:56:26.650 --> 00:56:28.830
march to down to the draft board. That's right.

828
00:56:28.840 --> 00:56:31.600
And you stay there for how long. Oh I think until

829
00:56:31.600 --> 00:56:33.700
about two o'clock if I remember correctly.

830
00:56:37.110 --> 00:56:41.550
On Tuesday May 5th several students. I really

831
00:56:41.550 --> 00:56:43.920
wouldn't estimate. I don't think it was as high as

832
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:44.280
50.

833
00:56:46.590 --> 00:56:48.990
I wouldn't even say staged a protest against the

834
00:56:48.990 --> 00:56:53.990
ROTC program. They said they met in the union in

835
00:56:54.690 --> 00:56:59.690
the morning and then proceeded to the Navy ROTC

836
00:56:59.700 --> 00:57:03.300
building and there were some signs that some of

837
00:57:03.300 --> 00:57:05.630
the students were carrying. And then I think

838
00:57:05.650 --> 00:57:09.930
pretty much on now. Did they inform you. How did

839
00:57:09.930 --> 00:57:10.770
you find out about this.

840
00:57:13.050 --> 00:57:15.360
I was in my office is in a union and I knew that

841
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:19.080
they were meeting downstairs in the 1939 room and

842
00:57:19.080 --> 00:57:21.810
about 11 30 I simply walked down and talked to a

843
00:57:21.810 --> 00:57:23.970
few of the students. And a couple of them just

844
00:57:24.090 --> 00:57:27.150
told me you know they said. Said yes we're going

845
00:57:27.150 --> 00:57:31.170
over to the Navy ROTC building. And we're just

846
00:57:31.170 --> 00:57:31.830
going to

847
00:57:33.920 --> 00:57:37.290
picket. And that's what they did. Did they object

848
00:57:37.290 --> 00:57:41.010
to your coming on. Not that I know of. I didn't

849
00:57:41.010 --> 00:57:44.160
feel that I was spying on my. You know this is the

850
00:57:44.160 --> 00:57:47.280
kind of thing I do quite a bit. And I was over

851
00:57:47.280 --> 00:57:51.510
there with them by the Navy ROTC building and then

852
00:57:51.960 --> 00:57:55.850
they as you know moved from there to the armory

853
00:57:56.210 --> 00:58:00.360
now. Was there any kind of real deal taking place

854
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:03.360
when they moved in the army. Not to my knowledge

855
00:58:03.390 --> 00:58:07.530
no. They got to the armory approximately at one

856
00:58:07.530 --> 00:58:11.610
o'clock. And at that time as I remember it and I

857
00:58:11.610 --> 00:58:16.290
was there all day and all night that I let's see

858
00:58:16.290 --> 00:58:21.290
that Tuesday. And so I would say there are thirty

859
00:58:22.170 --> 00:58:24.900
five of them at the most. And they simply sat down

860
00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:27.780
in the middle of the the armory floor. And it was

861
00:58:27.780 --> 00:58:30.900
completely empty. And of course it looked like a

862
00:58:30.900 --> 00:58:35.640
very sparse crowd in on that large cement floor. I

863
00:58:35.640 --> 00:58:37.710
sat down with the student assembly doctor then for

864
00:58:37.710 --> 00:58:41.370
15 or 20 minutes. And at that point they didn't

865
00:58:41.370 --> 00:58:43.620
seem to have any particular goals in mind other

866
00:58:43.620 --> 00:58:46.530
than sitting there. I didn't view it as a sit in

867
00:58:47.220 --> 00:58:51.300
at all. In fact never did. I think the word sit in

868
00:58:51.850 --> 00:58:56.850
is a definite overstatement. I suggested at that

869
00:58:57.210 --> 00:59:00.070
time as to the students. And there were some nine

870
00:59:00.070 --> 00:59:04.890
students. Well that we contact Colonel Brumbaugh

871
00:59:04.890 --> 00:59:07.830
and Colonel Barnett. See we get at some kind of a

872
00:59:07.830 --> 00:59:11.130
conversation going. And I'd already talked to them

873
00:59:11.130 --> 00:59:13.140
to see if there were any classes or drills

874
00:59:13.140 --> 00:59:16.380
scheduled. And I said that were not at least on

875
00:59:16.380 --> 00:59:18.330
the armory floor. There was nothing that was

876
00:59:18.330 --> 00:59:22.050
happening that was disrupted. Three students then

877
00:59:22.050 --> 00:59:26.010
did talk with Tom Brumbaugh. Colonel Barnett. And

878
00:59:26.580 --> 00:59:30.480
but that wasn't unproductive in terms of appeasing

879
00:59:30.480 --> 00:59:33.420
anybody. Of course the student did stay in the

880
00:59:33.420 --> 00:59:37.440
armory. We did more and more. Didn't show up. Did

881
00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:39.570
word spread throughout the campus. I don't think

882
00:59:39.570 --> 00:59:43.020
so. No I had no time do I remember. And I was

883
00:59:43.020 --> 00:59:45.960
there all afternoon. At no time do I remember the

884
00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:48.410
number of students being more than 40 or 50. Even

885
00:59:48.830 --> 00:59:49.320
they.

886
00:59:52.260 --> 00:59:57.260
They just engaged in a few games playing Frisbee

887
00:59:57.300 --> 01:00:01.640
talking and making plans for that night which is

888
01:00:01.650 --> 01:00:04.220
very important meeting at seven o'clock that night

889
01:00:04.230 --> 01:00:08.750
GSB had a meeting to call a strike. And the

890
01:00:08.760 --> 01:00:11.190
building was to close at five o'clock. I informed

891
01:00:11.190 --> 01:00:14.070
the students at about that time that the building

892
01:00:14.070 --> 01:00:16.290
was too close and that I wanted them to leave at

893
01:00:16.290 --> 01:00:19.590
that time. And what would be the penalties if they

894
01:00:19.590 --> 01:00:22.020
didn't leave. Well there's a university policy

895
01:00:22.020 --> 01:00:26.340
against use of university facilities without

896
01:00:26.340 --> 01:00:30.540
permission Tuzman and I felt that was why I told

897
01:00:30.540 --> 01:00:33.840
them that was the policy that I would invoke. And

898
01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:36.300
they could be subject to possible disciplinary

899
01:00:36.300 --> 01:00:40.200
action for for not responding favorably to that

900
01:00:40.200 --> 01:00:42.570
request. What how is that what was their reaction

901
01:00:42.570 --> 01:00:44.910
to that at that time. They simply said they had no

902
01:00:44.910 --> 01:00:48.510
intention of leaving. They didn't think they were

903
01:00:48.510 --> 01:00:51.240
sitting in. They see no they saw no reason for not

904
01:00:52.080 --> 01:00:55.890
being able to stay at that time. They were very

905
01:00:55.890 --> 01:00:58.260
anxious to have a strike called that night and

906
01:00:58.260 --> 01:01:02.910
then to use the armory in a non disruptive fashion

907
01:01:02.940 --> 01:01:06.810
to talk with faculty INS staff and other students

908
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:10.650
all night and especially to make posters and lay

909
01:01:10.650 --> 01:01:14.910
plans for the next day. It was at that time that

910
01:01:15.570 --> 01:01:18.900
between five and six fifteen I would say that we

911
01:01:18.900 --> 01:01:22.770
made contact with and I might say very frustrating

912
01:01:22.770 --> 01:01:27.770
one with law officials to see if there is any way

913
01:01:29.040 --> 01:01:32.070
if we wanted to go that direction of forcibly

914
01:01:32.070 --> 01:01:35.220
removed moving the students with police. You have

915
01:01:35.220 --> 01:01:38.730
contact being city please. And while the campus

916
01:01:38.730 --> 01:01:43.350
police were there and the campus police were not

917
01:01:43.350 --> 01:01:48.350
sufficiently aware of though the law to be able to

918
01:01:48.360 --> 01:01:52.830
invoke a particular ordinance such as trespass or

919
01:01:52.830 --> 01:01:54.480
disturbing the peace or whatever it is the

920
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:58.380
students were not disturbing anything. We went all

921
01:01:58.380 --> 01:02:01.510
the way to the attorney general who is the rule.

922
01:02:01.860 --> 01:02:06.860
He is our adviser in such matters. And despite the

923
01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:11.820
fact that information to the contrary was reported

924
01:02:11.820 --> 01:02:16.740
in the press at a later date about that incident.

925
01:02:18.630 --> 01:02:21.450
We received information at that time from him or

926
01:02:21.450 --> 01:02:23.040
from his office that

927
01:02:25.590 --> 01:02:28.110
we would not be able to remove the students under

928
01:02:28.110 --> 01:02:32.760
any legal kind of that audit injunction. No we did

929
01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:36.090
not ask for an injunction at that time formally

930
01:02:36.120 --> 01:02:39.900
and leave but we inquired into the possibility of

931
01:02:39.900 --> 01:02:44.900
such a thing. However as I mentioned earlier today.

932
01:02:47.550 --> 01:02:50.920
Emotions were so extremely intense at this time.

933
01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:53.490
It was a day after the Kent killings. This was

934
01:02:53.490 --> 01:02:58.020
coming to a head on our own campus. Even a boy

935
01:02:58.020 --> 01:03:03.020
would have had the legal backing and the police

936
01:03:03.390 --> 01:03:08.390
force to remove the 30 students or so who were

937
01:03:08.610 --> 01:03:11.250
there at the most at that time. By six o'clock and

938
01:03:11.250 --> 01:03:14.010
probably were 20 students they were completely non

939
01:03:14.010 --> 01:03:16.160
disruptive. They're simply sitting there not in a

940
01:03:16.170 --> 01:03:20.820
building that is not used very much anyway. It was

941
01:03:20.820 --> 01:03:22.950
my opinion then and still is that it would've been

942
01:03:22.950 --> 01:03:26.190
a grave mistake to to to remove the students. I

943
01:03:26.190 --> 01:03:30.750
think we've escalated our own campus situation is

944
01:03:30.750 --> 01:03:34.100
something very distasteful. So the visa legal

945
01:03:34.110 --> 01:03:36.360
approach that you took were simply as

946
01:03:37.200 --> 01:03:40.890
precautionary or to understand what you could do

947
01:03:40.890 --> 01:03:43.830
if the situation. That's right. Now then then the

948
01:03:43.830 --> 01:03:46.420
students all left anyway about six thirty forty

949
01:03:46.420 --> 01:03:49.140
seven. Because everybody including myself since I

950
01:03:49.140 --> 01:03:52.800
served as GSB adviser went over to the Great Hall

951
01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:54.750
the memorial union for the.

952
01:03:56.980 --> 01:03:59.960
GSB sent a meeting which was attended by about 400

953
01:03:59.960 --> 01:04:04.180
people and classes an hour and a half before 9/11.

954
01:04:04.360 --> 01:04:07.120
Both day. They called for the students drive to

955
01:04:07.120 --> 01:04:10.100
use speak in that meeting. No I didn't. I make it

956
01:04:10.470 --> 01:04:14.150
a point not to interfere in any way with and I try

957
01:04:14.150 --> 01:04:16.730
not even to express an opinion when asked at those

958
01:04:16.730 --> 01:04:19.730
meetings because I feel that it's not my role to

959
01:04:19.730 --> 01:04:23.360
do so. Then after the meeting some students come

960
01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:27.470
back to the army. Yes about eight thirty that

961
01:04:27.470 --> 01:04:30.350
night. Bob Tremblay made an announcement. I think

962
01:04:30.350 --> 01:04:35.350
it was Bob at the meeting that said we should go

963
01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:39.770
back to the armory and use that in the manner that

964
01:04:39.770 --> 01:04:43.580
I had explained earlier to to talk to lay plans

965
01:04:43.580 --> 01:04:46.070
for the next day for the rally that was planned to

966
01:04:46.070 --> 01:04:49.940
make signs and posters and armbands and to get

967
01:04:49.940 --> 01:04:52.550
ready for for the rallies that were planned the

968
01:04:52.550 --> 01:04:55.460
next day and what they did. Was there any attempt

969
01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:58.100
to prevent him from returning to the army. No

970
01:04:58.100 --> 01:05:00.740
there wasn't. There wasn't a large group that went

971
01:05:00.750 --> 01:05:03.190
overrides that at that time. I would say as matter

972
01:05:03.190 --> 01:05:05.060
of fact all night long. There were never more than

973
01:05:05.060 --> 01:05:07.010
a hundred and fifty persons in the armory. And I

974
01:05:07.010 --> 01:05:07.850
was there all night.

975
01:05:10.010 --> 01:05:14.350
They the students were extremely orderly. As

976
01:05:14.360 --> 01:05:19.360
matter of fact at that point we meaning the

977
01:05:19.490 --> 01:05:23.360
university administration decided that this was a

978
01:05:23.990 --> 01:05:27.660
good opportunity knowing and thought and thinking.

979
01:05:27.690 --> 01:05:30.380
We we understood the deal was a high level of

980
01:05:30.380 --> 01:05:34.370
emotions at the time to seize on an opportunity to

981
01:05:34.490 --> 01:05:36.710
be of some positive influence. And we called

982
01:05:36.710 --> 01:05:40.340
probably 25 or 30 faculty members who came over

983
01:05:40.340 --> 01:05:43.310
and stayed to while later than midnight many of

984
01:05:43.310 --> 01:05:47.090
them simply talking with students talking about

985
01:05:47.090 --> 01:05:50.720
the problem the plans trying to make it into a

986
01:05:50.720 --> 01:05:53.450
positive situation. I know it's a matter of

987
01:05:53.450 --> 01:05:57.290
interpretation but the events in the armory that I

988
01:05:57.290 --> 01:05:58.970
still would not view as a sit in.

989
01:06:01.580 --> 01:06:04.070
I don't condone the activities of the students in

990
01:06:04.070 --> 01:06:06.890
the early afternoon but am moving into the armory

991
01:06:06.890 --> 01:06:09.590
in a manner that they did and they did not leave

992
01:06:09.590 --> 01:06:11.840
when I asked them to. But nevertheless

993
01:06:14.060 --> 01:06:16.640
the situation came out I think very positively.

994
01:06:18.330 --> 01:06:21.210
And that should have been and was our primary

995
01:06:21.210 --> 01:06:21.510
effort.